Capital Punishment , for or against?

[Bottom of the Class]

Will we get the chance to have our say on sharia law? Look what is happening in this country with the muslims, politicians are bending over backwards to accommodate them.

I read in today papers that an old couple have been killed by yobs because they remonstrated with them about noise and loud music. What will be done to curb this?

There is an election in 10 weeks time (approx) and the politicians will be out with their soap boxes spouting how they are going to impose justice, law and order, discipline. Ask your prospective candidate for his/hers views on these serious things, I bet they wont give an honest or decent answer.

I hear what people say about having no Capital Punishment but wait until serious crime strikes home at their famililes and then see what they say. Capital Punishment was there to protect society from serious crime. We did away with it, we did away with strict discipline in schools, we did away with home discipline, and look where we are now. We have murder, rape, terrorism, yobs, an unsafe society all done in the name of progress.

Progress which way? For what it is worth, in my humble opinion, having been on the planet nearly 70 years, backwards, at great speed.

[social problem]

Just had a thought.

What do members think of a muslim culture being imposed upon GB and patricular with respect to sharia law where they cut hands, arms, legs off, stone women for adultery, flog people, and still have hanging.

There is also reference to drugs on this thread as well and a huge amount of heroin comes from Asia, particularly Afghanistan (thats why we are there, its a drugs war).

I am not discussing politics but just the question of Capital Punishment.

Could reduce 'armed' robbery though.


Sorry.

[zippy 1 duh]

social problem ..... I note your "sorry" at end of thread. (rolling eyes and thinking SP you may well blush!! ) ... ahem.

[The General]

so..what of the latest twist to the tragic James Bulger story? I doubt even the most fervent supporter of capital punishment would feel it had been appropriate in this case...

[zippy 1 duh]

Very difficult General .I am not a hard/fast supporter of Cap Punishment . (If had been my child..Id have ripped his head off , if had been adult when did crime) ..but he was a child also (10yrs old at time ) ........  on Yahoo it says Jon Venables attacked a co worker, why? was he provoked?
The human mind is very complicated The attorney for defence was quoted as saying "I would have paid a huge ammount of money to say Thompson, was more likely to be the more dangerous and evil of two!"
   They were child criminals  , they were given chance ... new identitys etc .

Now Peter Sutcliffe ( the Yorkshire Ripper) is applying for parole !  I spoke of a claim this WOULD happen , last year..folk ignored!! And I had spoken. in depth with a lady who was involved in his case (Diane Simpsom ... www.dianesimpkins.com    )  
  I personally think some can NEVER be cured of murderous lusts .........hence my feelings of the need for lobectomy (YES I HAVE experience of such cases).......... castration does not take violent crimes from those prone.  

  \My feeling is let Ian Brady starve himself to death..dont intervene , let him have that choice. Sutcliffe? we lived oposite an industrial estate he slept in his lorry in, in Luton.......... was scary to know he was so near !!!!!!!!  NO he should never be released, and IF cant accept it..let him take own life!he and ilk because if dellusion will not..cowards ... and dellusional in belief he could take life of others ,still. just because !!

May be we ARE too soft here ???????? I can only imagine , as a mother, how I would feel .......Id STIL kill to protect my kids ..if eldest now went and drug traffiked........YES, Id obide by law of country now, that he was caught in ..his life would be useless in hands of drug barons .......so death would be a easy option from a lifetime interment in less than civilised country .  I MEAN THAT.
If mother of a someone like Venables ? well he was damaged way before James Bulger murder .But hes a man now, has been given every chance (like Mary Bell ) ..no political case should be made just because an election draws near ........lets get politics and crimiology OUT of picture folks .
AND POLITICS is the penutimate in Venables case.....mark my words!! Ill bet all I have on that!!!

  

  

[zippy 1 duh]

We need to take into account that under 18yrs death penalty was cause of Bentleys hanging..........he did not shoot gun, his younger partner did, so was exonerated . So Venables case in Jamies murder , was judged as an under aged child ........  kids were hung in Charles11 (and before) times for less, or transported to the brit colonies .......many  became wealthy by the slave trade that existed and were brutal . MURDERING slaves ..am merely trying to add discussion and history .

IF Venables has murdered again..well shows no psychology can help him , if a fight in life....well Gov is exploiting him as "We are tuff on crime !" ..Bollocks!
No Government has balls to actually do justice and differentuate between a crime of a young man or that of murderer!!! Think about it .

[Bottom of the Class]

The Jamie Bulger case is a very sad event in all our lives, both for the murdured boys parents and for perpertrators parents. No one wants to see children facing the final judgement, capital punishment, BUT, society deserves to be protected.

The powers that be need to think very seriously as to what they want to do in the future. Crime by under 18's is on the increase and the murder of a chiild by someone under 18 will happen again very soon. Its a sad statement to make but true.

I read in the paper, not sure which one, that Venables spent 2 hours speaking to his parole board as to why he thought he should be released from youth custody before his 18th birthday. They fell hook line and sinker for a brilliant child actor. I also note that the other lad involved in this case and Mary Bell the other infamous child killer have not re-offended and are living in the community, with their blessing, quite happily.

No government faces up to their responsibilities properly, they duck and dive, turn and turn again. Tough on crime, this must be the biggest lie of the 20th century, and it is continuing into the 21st. When will we get back to some proper justice and common sense.

[zippy 1 duh]

Winnie Johnson held a memorial service for her murdered  son Keith Bennnet, yesterday .  Keith was a victim of Hindley and Brady . Out of the 5 young lives taken by them , Keiths body is only one not to have been found on Saddleworth Moor .

I can vaguely remember when Hindley and Brady were in court , I remember my parents and grandparents and the great Aunts, all ,without exception, saying the death penalty should have been reinstated for them.
   Apparently at Dartmoor prison had a hanging room /death chamber  and when Capital punishment was abolished  a crowd gathered there to protest against the abolishment .

   Was it something The People voted on ? The abolition  of the death penalty . Or just the parliament of the Day the day ? 

Are there more psychiactrly disturbed folk around now than back then ?   Those who comitted heinous crimes .  I never understood why Brady was classed insane but Hindley not . I suppose Brady would have  been spared on insanity grounds , but Hindley hung  as wasnt deemed insane . 

[The General]

I dont think there was any vote...I think the government of the day just woke up to the fact its not the way a civilised society behaves. My understanding is there had been a number of very controversial executions for quite some years before the abolition, which public opinion had been very much opposed to.
Apparantly , someone was executed then it was subsequently believed that Christie and not the executed man had in fact been the murderer. There was also the case of Edith Thompson , executed although she played no real part in the killing ...when hung, she haemmorhaged very badly and was found to have been pregnant. In fact, the hangman later commited suicide as he was never able to come to terms with what he had done.
Then there are the cases of Bentley and Ellis already mentioned here.
I dont remember any of the details of the Hindley/Brady cases, although did see a film about it and recently read a book written by a woman who believed herself to be Bradys daughter. What puzzles me is why society generally seems so focused on that one case rather than , say, the Soham murders, or the Wests? ? We never really hear of those and Maxine Carr got about six months , dint she ?

[zippy 1 duh]

OMG   Iv looked up the Edith Thompson case ,she was 29yrs, her lover 20yrs . She was hanged for adultery  basically . Canvas knickers were introduced after her demise, so no one watching would be subjected to that "haemorrage" sight again . She was 113 lbs  on being weighed on going to prison and was 119lbs  when hung . Yet ate very, very little ..... so reading the facts stated .
  There is a wide range of travesty of injustice leading from the link googled ..

I think I stated somewhere else, a while ago about The Wests, Shipman, Huntley etc . At least Fred West and Shipman took own lives . (albeit Shipman did, so Primrose, his wife, got his pension so I guess he a modicum of guilt feeling, to make sure wife was Ok on his demise ).

  Christie was undoubtably guilty . I remember the program on him .
I guess Nat, folk focus on cases in media at forefront ..... unjust/unfair .
Still think If Brady wants to starve himself , he should not be force fed . Bobby Sands starved himself in the Maze Prison. Maxine Carr was given a new identity , she lied about Huntleys involvement and think 12 months was too short a sentence .


I still ask tho, today, who decides 1 person is insane (where is the fine line between pathological delusion/evil )..so many of these offenders must surely tread a very fine line.
  The humanist in me says a definate NO to bringing back death penalty, in case folk become a political "Toy" ,but I can see where need for , in manys eyes ,think society has become lawless .
I guess the cynic in me, does not trust the politicians or legal service . I do believe every human has potential to strike and kill if strongly provoked....... these days , with drugs, gang culture.
  How long before Jon Venables is sussed as to he is in prison? Its said he managed to get into night club bouncing....... wasnt checked etc. Wel they couldnt ,coud they, has has different identity. The powers that be let down him and his employers there!

[Burning Bot]

The Christie case is of some interest in this debate, Naat and Zippy.

In Professor Keith Simpson's book 'Forty Years of Murder' he describes the work of himself and other pathologists Teare and Camps in the Christy case. Timothy Evans was executed for the murder of his baby daughter Geraldine ; Christy subsequently confessed to this murder and also to that of Evan's wife Beryl. At the trial Mr Justice Brablin accepted [the pathologists] opinions ... and dismissed Christies 'confession' to the murder of Beryl as false. His final conclusion was ... "More probably than not, Evans had killed Beryl but Christie had killed Geraldine" (from 'Forty Years of Murder')

Since Evans had been executed for the 'wrong' murder he was given a posthumous pardon - although it was established that he'd murdered his wife, he'd been executed for murdering his daughter, which was actually down to Christy !

[The General]

Yes, BB2...and I think this illustrates the point...whilst I appreciate this was a long time ago...are we quite sure mistakes like this wont happen again..not because the technology now doesnt exist..but will it be used properly?? Look for example in modern times at the conduct and treatment received by Colin Stagg??

Zips...I dont know how or who makes a decision that someone is insane...as my own view would be going about murdering children is so far from usual behaviour surely anyone doing such a thing has to be disturbed.

[zippy 1 duh]

No I dont think "mistakes" in judicial system can be ruled out Nat .Colin Staggs case is one such ...The judicial system is flawed. No doubt about that .
Which leads to debate of political and police/judicial system . ALL which I have taken into consideration . Have done through out disscussion here .
(its gratfifying  to see a well explored debate, without flame throwing and insults ... something GFs is unique with ) .

Politics, hate mob etc have no part .We cannot undo injustice of past  .Christie murdered, so did Evans , both were given "justice of their era ",neither disputed that fact .

  This debate has still got me unsure  , not for or against ....I am still uncertain in many cases.... If someone murderded one of my family/friends, knee jerk reaction would be "give me 5mins with em !"  .But I still ask myself  "COULD you pull trap door/adminster the lethal dose in cold blood ?"  NO I could not !  So question is , on a unbiased note..should we say YES  To  death penalty in modern life (today) if not able to cold blooded kill another human being ?   Executioners had to be impartial...... but as mere mortals, maybe we need to hand over to a Power Greater" than mere humans. Our culture demands humanity ?  Hmmmmmmmmmm the culture of interogation, of torture in Guatanoma bay shows we are sub human as a species... UK forces in MI6 knew what went on and did nothing to stop the USA folk from torure (They came from states where Cap Punishent is norm...interesting that) ......politics again !!!!!!  NO we cannot trust gov (of any party) so my vote has to change from "Unsure"  to NO......................hell dont say  Im not ready to face and challenge  and change view. Im no softee either. As discussion has arisen, I am willing to do homework.............and going as far back JANE BOLYNE  DUCHESS OF ROCHESTER .............(henry V111 day..travesty of justice has occurred ..YES Jane , not Anne Queen of england .................  ITS ALL IN HISTORY FOLKS .

[Targetarear]

Perhaps, for the most heinous crimes, there should be a sentence of "death in prison", with no prospect of parol or remission. That might be a deterrent, but would provide hope for those who have been wrongly convicted.

[Burning Bot]

I tend to agree with Target ; I'm very undecided about Capital punishment (although I can understand the attitude of those whose relatives have been the victims) but I think we are too soft with violent criminals in the U.K. When I was a C.P.N. I worked with three clients who had been found guilty of murder but who had been released, one after about 8 years, one around 10 and one around 15. Each had been concerned in familial incidents, rather than their being "professional" criminals and, frankly, none were any danger to society.

However, there are those who have killed for gain, in commission of robberies, etc, who are the truly violent criminals. I believe that, in their cases, life should mean life. I like to watch the accounts of "True FBI" on TV, when you hear that these people are sentenced to 'Life without parole' - or even '99 years'.

I suppose my bottom line is that I don't think I could actually execute anybody personally - although I wonder if my attitude would be different if the victim were a member of my family ?

How many times have we heard parents whose children have been hurt beg for "just ten minutes in a room with the perpetrator" ?